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Biblical Basis for an Old Earth
  • SimonSimon March 2012
    ...and so (hopefully) ends another frustrating engagement with a YEC who refuses to even study the subjects behind their opinion. Par for the course methinks.
  • GavinM March 2012
    Unfortunately one of the draw backs of online communication. I certainly wasn't intending to be patronising with my comment on not understanding what an 'evolutionist' is. And certainly not with trying to clear up his misconceptions on evolution which I note he never engaged with. Nor answered my question.
  • exchemist March 2012
    Reading this thread, I just wonder if this AndyR might be the fellow who set up the attached site (which seems to have been dead for over a year):


    ....Not that it matters much......

    Incidentally the ID issue in the UK (where I live) seems pretty dead these days. Thankfully the ID people are few in number and seem to have more or less given up trying to get it into UK science lessons. The main problem we face is people like Dawkins trying to stir up warfare.

  • Michael March 2012

    Sorry exchemist I must challenge you. ID crops up often in realtion to education and YECs use ID as a cloak for their YEC views  - see Truthin scince and Centre for Intelligent Design.


    Also YECs tied to get Statham from CMI to speak at a school in Exeter last week but a protest from a parent and others stopped itI can give three examples where YEC was introduced in Anglcian schools and there must be more. There are alos proposed free schools eg Everyday Champions and others and of course the Vardy state schools taught creationism

  • exchemist March 2012
    Michael, golly, I had no idea!

    But surely Truth in Science and C4ID are pretty dormant, aren't they? At any rate there's precious little going on on their websites and next to nothing in the media, since about 2007 when the Vardy business blew up. And the schools' inspectorate has a directive from the Min of Education that creationism/ID is not to be taught as part of the science curriculum, doesn't it? 

    Seriously, if you know of any campaign to get creationism (incl. ID) into school science, I would be interested in helping smoke it out and challenging it.    
  • SimonSimon March 2012
    exchemist - you might want to check out the "Stephen Meyer" thread that details the 'launch' event I went to last year of the C4ID. They all seemed rather hopeful that the momentum was building in the UK.


  • exchemist March 2012
    Thanks Simon, I had read the thread, but to be honest I felt this was probably just the ID crowd talking up their prospects rather than an objective danger of anything serious in the UK. In that line of headbanger evangelism, you have whistle to keep up your spirits or you'd just give up. 

    In the thread I didn't see details of any actual UK campaign - and pretty soon the Dembski acolytes (if that's what they are - I've read that his students are or were alleged to get marks towards their degrees by doing this sort of thing) started lowering the tone and changing the subject. (I was also comforted though, to see GrumpyBob make a special guest appearance. He can be good value.)  

    But I'm not in education so I may be too sanguine - that's clearly what Michael thinks. Anyway I'll have to follow this Statham character (another ruddy engineer pontificating about biology!) and CMI from now on. 
  • GavinM March 2012
    I think it would be fair to say that although ID is having a hard time getting into UK schools (in no small part to active opposition that has been needed to counter it) it is still prevalent and accepted within the UK church whether obviously (in the form of pressure groups like C4ID) or as a theological 'background' occasionally nodded to (such as in John Lennox's talks).
  • GrumpyBob March 2012
    exchemist - I posted my review of 'Signature in the Cell' at Wonderful Life
  • Michael March 2012
    There are many attempts to get creationism into schools . Just recently a creationist from a lubberly organistion was prevented from speaking to RE and science students as if he were well-qualiified in biology and geology
  • exchemist April 2012
    GrumpyBob, I've just read your review - I have to admire your stamina - and also the link to the rather amusing report on the "Wistar Retrospective". It all fits the depressing pattern of a rather deceitful enterprise, aimed at scoring points in a public relations campaign (and running for cover whenever it doesn't work out), rather than natural science. Of course a PR campaign - to fight the dark forces of "materialism" - was what the original Wedge Strategy was all about. I think the attitude may stem from Philip Johnson who, being a lawyer, probably thinks a good argument is a solid day's work, whereas of course you or I would think more in terms of some, erm, actual lab work.....  

    By the way, I note the strapline on your site is "...biology and atheism an an overly religious world..." Without in any way taking issue with your own beliefs, I would urge you to recognise that most major Christian denominations in the UK accept natural science in all its glory, evolution and all. The problem stems mainly from a number of fundamentalist Protestant sects, whose rejection of traditional church teaching leads them to go back to basics (i.e. the bible, pure and simple) and attempt to re-interpret it individually for themselves from scratch - with predictably silly results in some (not all) cases. I think fundamentalism is the enemy, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or anything else, because it prioritises the emotions of the ignorant over the thought of scholars.  

    P.S. Re the US it may be different I think, seeing that over the centuries a lot of Europe's religious Awkward Squad has migrated there in the search for ideological purity and freedom from persecution, from the Pilgrim Fathers onward.