It seems the sticking point is what importance you attach to the bible and to science.
The old earthers seem to take science and interpret the bible by it.
The young earthers take the bible and interpret science by it.
Taking the bible as the given word of our Creator, surely it has to take precedence over anything Man (the created) has to say.
Anthony,whilst accepting the general principles of your argument, that one can shed light on the other, where there is contradiction which is the source of knowledge we trust.
In the image you show it includes 'observation' & 'experiments', neither of which we can exercise re origins of the cosmos, origins of life, seeing evolution (i.e new information in a living entity, as opposed to adaptation or speciation) actually taking place
you appear to follow an assumption, which implies that there is no ultimate authority.
You accept Christ's death and resurrection which is part of the bible. The inference is then that you do not accept other parts of the bible as being true. Surely it is either all true, i.e . factual - tho' we may not fully understand it, or it is not. We can't pick and choose which parts we believe otherwise we finish with a God made up of the parts of scripture we like, not the God shown by all of His word.
If early Genesis is wrong why did Christ die. Original sin couldn't have happened (as death was present before mankind) so there was no reason for atonement. And presumably you doubt the veracity of Christ when He said in Mark 10 v6 'But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female'
Ref the 'good evidence' that evolution is true, I would dispute how good it really is. It all depends on one assumption, that it all began billions of years ago and all the evidence given is based on that assumption, and the new theories which keep appearing are to support that argument, even though the new theories are unsupported by definitive/experiential evidence e.g. dark energy. It's only promulgated because science has found that if the origins theory of the cosmos were true then something like 96% of the energy that would have been produced cannot be accounted for.
Thanks for your comments all
You are right, I am greatly influenced by the classic creationist approach. I also agree that the conflict between scripture and science is is often due to misunderstanding. However I believe in the current debate it is not about misunderstanding, but about the deliiberate misapplication of science to support a specific world view i.e atheism. (More on this below)
Thanks for the correction, I should have put 'dark energy/matter'
I did not suggest it was related to biology, my point was that evolutionary dogma influences all this research as well. It relates to the 'Big Bang' theory as it is used in the ongoing argument to support the random act of spontaneous creation so Man can ignore God. Without evolution we would not need explanations of where things come from, tho' we no doubt be looking to see what else God had created. Our faith in God would allow us to trust him. The proof of dark matter/energy is still unproven in the strict sense, they still remain as hypotheses. To believe in their existence I would need to have faith in those who make the claims as the science is outside my abilities. I would rather have faith in God, believing him rather than fallible men.
I could almost hear the sigh as you wrote 'heard time and again'
Maybe you have heard it so often because it is true.
If we use Tradition and the Holy Spirit as our truth sources we need to be careful. Tradition is man based and subject to abuse, Christ rebuked the Pharisees for following tradition.
Following the Holy Spirit - 2 points a) the Holy Spirit is God therefore cannot contradict what the bible says when he gives us guidance nor lead us to do things contrary to the bible. Look at the excesses of the charismatic movement in the last 40 years which, allegedly, were all 'led by The Spirit'. And which would you follow if the bible clashed with tradition which clashed with the leading of The Spirit which clashed with the bible.
EvenAugustine cannot remotely be used in support of old-earth beliefs. Even though heallegorized the Days of Creation (and lots of other passages—he was no Hebrewscholar), he tried to compress the days into an instant, which is diametrically opposite to what long-agers claim!
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My questions originally were about who/what you trust as the ultimate truth and no one has answered that. As I said, do you believe bits or all of the bible and then, how can you add greater importance to one part over another. No one commented on Mark 10 v 6.
None theological reason for being a creationist;
As supporters of evolutionary theory you align yourselves with these sorts of views, and also with the strident atheistic views of people such as Dawkins and Meyer
Beneath are 2 quotations.
‘Christianity has fought, still fights, and will continue to fightscience to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterlyand finally the very reason Jesus’ earthly life was supposedly made necessary.Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find thesorry remains of the Son of God. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for oursins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing.’
G. Richard Bozarth,‘The Meaning of Evolution’, American Atheist, p. 30. 20 September 1979.
. Look at thefollowing quote from atheist Richard Bozarth from the Sept 1979 issue of AmericanAtheist:
‘It becomes clear now that the whole justification of Jesus’ life anddeath is predicated on the existence of Adam and the forbidden fruit he and Eveate. Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed? Without Adam’s fallinto a life of constant sin terminated by death, what purpose is there toChristianity? None. What all this means is that Christianity cannot lose theGenesis account of creation … Christianity is fighting for it’s very life.’
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